Firmicus & Dorotheus The Third Day of The Moon [PDF]

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The Third Day of the Moon Firmicus Maternus & Dorotheus of Sidon Liber Tertius: Ch. XIV v 10 Complied by Ineke Firmicus Maternus - Commentary and kindly typed up by Caroline Allen Dorotheus of Sidon - Commentary and kindly typed up by Dorothy Kovach P1 -- Firmicus Maternus P 2 -- Dorotheus of Sidon P5 -- More on why the 3rd Day P6 -- What sort of Chart P7 -- Using Technique P14 -- More Exciting Experimentation with this technique CarO ~~ I must admit I immediately twiddled my Moon 30* as per his instructions! For those of you who may be wondering what the heck we are talking about, there is a curious ancient technique mentioned in connection with the Moon. I shall print it below:

Firmicus Maternus Caroline Allen [email protected] P 15 "In all charts you must first observe the course of the Moon; not only on the first day on which the native begins the first steps of life, but with care the third day. Notice what planet the Moon attaches herself to and with what aspect; toward whom and from whom she is moving. For on the third day the new-born infant absorbs his first nourishment. Thus, on the third day one must observe whether the Moon is diminished or full of light, and to what extent benefic and malefic planets are in aspect. For the third day, like the first, determines everything and in the same way*. If this information is carefully collected we will never be confused or disturbed in explaining the fates of men. If anything seems to have been left out in this explanation we shall discuss it in our fourth book. (*NOTE: Firmicus is counting in Roman fashion; the third day after birth is our `two days after birth'. The third day of the Moon is found in a number of authors, including Vettius Valens, who clarifies the meaning: It is actually the point exactly 30* ahead of the radical Moon (Anthology, Bk 1 Ch. 14). The two points in square to the Moon are also used: see Bk 8 Ch. II. The general fortune of the native is evaluated by considering the planets aspecting the points or having rulership there.) Ends. CarO -- I have not had any children, but I thought that they were put straight to the breast as soon as they were born? Obviously this wasn't the case in 4th Century Rome or indeed in the 2nd century Alexandria of Vettius Valens!! silva [email protected] Children are put straight to the breast, but it is only Colostrum that is there - a woman's "Milk" does not usually come down, - be able to be suckled, until the third day after birth........Therefore I would imagine they are saying that if something interfered with that Milk being produced, there would be no nourishment for the child - unless it was put to another woman's breast, (referred to as a "wet nurse") who was lactating, it would die. From the Internet description of Colostrum: >Your breasts produce colostrum beginning during pregnancy and continuing through the early days of breastfeeding. This special milk is yellow to orange in color and thick and sticky. It is

low in fat, and high in carbohydrates, protein, and antibodies to help keep your baby healthy. Colostrum is extremely easy to digest, and is therefore the perfect first food for your baby. It is low in volume (measurable in teaspoons rather than ounces), but high in concentrated nutrition for the newborn. Colostrum has a laxative effect on the baby, helping him pass his early stools, which aids in the excretion of excess bilirubin and helps prevent jaundice. When your baby is breastfed early and often, your breasts will begin producing mature milk around the third or fourth day after birth. Your milk will then increase in volume< More below on this. Dorothy J. Kovach [email protected] I remembered Dorotheus (a contemporary of Firmicus) also concentrated heavily on the third day!!! I had done a chart for this, at least 10 years ago, when I first read this chapter, but not having Caro to explain things for me, I did it for the wrong day!!! (3 modern days) instead of 3 Roman days! Thanks for pointing out that it is 30 degrees from the Moon degrees. In any event, Dorotheus was very keen on this topic and spends a great deal of time on it. I started typing it up, but realize now, it is quite long, and so I shall do it in 3 parts.

Dorotheus of Sidon Here is part one of Dorotheus of Sidon, on calculating the condition of the child's upbringing via the 3rd day after his or her birth. Kindly typed up by Dorothy J. Kovach [email protected] Carmen Astrologicum David Pingree Translator "Book 1 Chapter 12 page '172' (the book starts on page 161, so it is actually page 11). "A Chapter. "Consideration concerning the upbringing of the native, his condition, and his livelihood." "It is necessary also to look at the sign which the Moon enters on the third day from the birth of the native as you will know this from the place of [of the Moon] and the lord of [its] exaltation and which [planet] is associated with it and from its lord and from [the planet ]aspecting it. It indicates the native because, if benefics aspect this sign, it indicates the first thing the goodness of [his ] upbringing and [his] good fortune. "If it is evil and malefics aspect it, it indicates his misery. Look also at the lord of the house of the Moon on the third day and mark it off, but if you find it is in a good place shining in its light or benefics aspecting it, then the native is middling in condition and livelihood, he is neither happy nor destitute. If it is different, then this is misery. " If you find the dodecatoremorion of the Moon with Malefics or they aspect it, then this is an indication of misfortune for the native. If you find the Moon Void of all the planets [and] none of them aspects it, and none is in the ascendant, or aspecting the ascendent, then this native is void of good in livelihood, possesses pain and hardship in the pursuit of what he needs. "If you find the Moon increasing and Mars aspecting it from opposition or quartile or [Mars] is with it, or [if] it is decreasing and Saturn is aspecting it, then there is no good for him in his livelihood.

"If the Moon is increasing in the direction of the north, he attains good at the end of his life, if it is cutting from the direction of the south to the direction of the North and is ascending, then he attains good at the beginning of his life, and at its end. "Know that the Moon is best of all if it is increasing, rising in the sphere of the heaven toward the north.* "This is a symbol of prosperity and manly virtue for the native. "Look at the 10th place from the Moon; If you find a benefic in it, it indicates splendour and good for the native, but if a malefic is there, a diminution of this and injury. "If the Moon is injured and Saturn is in the 10th from it, it indicates misery and misfortune. If the malefic is in other than the house and its place is not on this side, this is an indication of great harm, but if a benefic is in the 10th house from the Moon in its own place, then this native attains wealth and gains in right and honesty. "If you wish to consider the parents of the native..." [To Be Continued] * When Dorotheus says north, he means the 4th house. When he says rising from the north, means the 3rd house, because if we think of the primary motion of the planets (clockwise, or hourly fashion). The planets following the Sun, will rise in the east and reach maximum height at the MC and then begin to set, when they get to the 7th, they cross below the horizon. Once planets in natural direction move past the IC they begin to rise. . )

The Father "Carmen Astrologicum The upbringing of the native” "If you wish to consider the parents of the native, look for his father from the Sun and the Lord of the Triplicity because from these planets are known the lineage of his father and his livelihood (respectively). “If you find the lord of the triplicity whether benefic or malefic, in good place and the Sun also strong in its place, then this is an indicator of wealth and praise for his father. “If the Sun is in terms of the Benefics, then it is better, and it indicates with this that the native will inherit this from his father but if you find with the Lord of the Triplicity a malefic, it indicates a decrease in the property of the father and injuries and calamity. “If you find the Sun and the Lord of its triplicity in bad places, then this indicates that his father is not noble and poverty and necessity have overtaken him. “If you find the Sun in a good place, and the lord of its triplicity cadent, then this indicates that his father is noble, but he will not keep his property and his honor because the Sun's indication thus. "If you find with this, the Sun in terms of the malefics, say that his father no longer has splendor because this is an indication of service for him.

"If with this the malefics aspect the Sun, you will find illness, purification in his father. "If with this you find the Sun in a bad place and the lord of its triplicity in a good place, then say that the father of this native increases the good, and they are elevated afterwards over those whom they meet of equal position. "If you find the first lord of the triplicity of the Sun in a strong place and the second is in a bad place, then his father at the beginning of his birth attains goodness of condition, but this does not persist until the end, and if it is the opposite, then reverse it.... "...If you find the Sun, and the lord of its triplicity in a bad place, that of its dejection (fallen), in other than its sign, then it indicates death, in a terrible place for the father. "If with this the malefics aspect it from quartile or opposition, or are with it, all the property of the father and his mother will be squandered." -Dorotheus on the upbringing of the native part 2... (to be continued.....) [On judging the father, from the state of the Moon three days (3 Roman days, or 30 degrees ahead of the natal degree of the Moon].

The Mother and then some! "Carmen Astrologicum The upbringing of the native” "Look concerning the matter of the mother from the Moon, and in lineage, from its place and its term and its right side and its left side and from its place in the South concerning its position relative to the ascending node and the descending node because if you find it descending toward the south or towards an eclipse or in its dejection or in the terms of malefics, then all of this is bad for the mother, then especially if malefics aspect it. "If you find the Moon in the term[s] of the benefics descending towards the south or in a constellation with what I told you of its malefic or its dejection, then his mother is noble, but ignominy and distain and humiliation have struck her. "If you find the Moon in a cardine under the earth, then a chronic illness will strike his mother or his mother will be harmed in her reputation. And especially if the Moon is in the Cardine of the west or in the cardine under the earth, in the term of the malefics and the Lord of its house is cadent, then the livelihood of the mother is slavery. "If you find the Moon in a cardine and it is in quartile of Saturn or Mars or in opposition to these two or conjoining with them, then his mother will die a terrible death.... "If the nativity is in the daytime, and the Moon and the lords of its triplicity are in a good place, then this is something with respect to his mother and her end, and similarly in a nocturnal nativity. "If you find the Sun and the Lord of the triplicity of the Sun in a Cadent sign in a bad position, then judge for the native and his father affliction and misery and that sometimes his father will desire his expulsion and his ousting from his houses and his nursing will not reach weaning at

the whim of his father until the time is cut off, because in a diurnal nativity the Sun and the lords of its triplicity indicate the father, and the Moon and the lords of the triplicity indicate the matters of the native and the mother. "If you find the Moon and the Lords of the triplicity in a nocturnal nativity in a bad place, then it indicates misfortune in the condition of the mother and the native, and so on. Say in a diurnal nativity, that the Sun and the lords of the triplicity indicate the matter of his father and his end, and so the Moon in a diurnal nativity indicates the matter of the mother. "If you find the Sun and the Moon and the lords of its triplicity in a bad place, then judge for these two together what is mightier than he has strength for of misery and little livelihood, and with this that the native will not be brought up, but be harmed by his parents, but if you find one of the benefics in a cardine, this misery is withheld from him until a rotation of that planet in which is in his cardine has passed. "If you find the Sun shining in a good place, and the aspects of the malefics while benefics aspect, this indicates the father's doubling in what there is in him of property and wealth, but it indicates also the diminution of the property of the native. "If you find the Moon thus, say the same about the matter of his mother. It is worse than this if the Lord of the cardine the fourth, is joined because it is the indicator of the matter of the parents. "If you find the Sun in a cadent and the malefics aspect, it indicates slavery of his father, and if the Moon is thus, it indicates the slavery of the Mother and their poverty and their need for nourishment day by day. If you find the lord of the ascendant cadent like this, then the native is not brought up out of misery and expulsion because he is a slave or a pauper or in need of nourishment. " [End]

More Discussion More on why the 3rd Day bunnies34me [email protected] Quoting from Firmicus Maternus' Liber Tertius: Ch. XIV v 10 " For on the third day the new-born infant absorbs his first nourishment. " So it's about ABSORBING nourishment. Before the body can absorb nourishment, which happens in the intestines, not in the mouth, the meconium must be excreted. Colostrum acts as a laxative (among its many beneficial properties) and helps newborn babies to excrete meconium so they can absorb nutrition. What is meconium? "Meconium (muh-CO-nee-um) is the thick, sticky, tarry appearing fetal stool that is passed in the several days after birth (and sometimes before birth). It is the digested residue of swallowed amniotic fluid, which contains foetal skin and hair cells in abundance. Passage of meconium is facilitated by the ingestion of mother's colostrum." Even if a baby isn't breastfed, it's important to clear out the meconium somehow so the infant can absorb its nutrition. Even today, the third day remains the standard deadline for the stools to change from meconium to regular excreta.

Caro, Lisa and Dorothy, thanks for bringing this up. The third day criterion makes a whole bunch of sense. In the same way that a baby's first breath is a natalization, so also its first absorbed nourishment. In my case, it's a big improvement for my Moon over its natal circumstances :-)

What sort of Chart bunnies34me [email protected] I wonder about the 30 degrees rule; the Moon's daily motion does vary. And on the third day, at the same time as birth, 48 hours have passed. Would it not be more exact to look at the degree and sign at 48 hours after birth? Might it have been because of the use of whole signs that they simply look 30 degrees ahead of the natal Moon? Caroline Allen [email protected] I haven't got that particular book by Vettius Valens, and therefore am relying on David McCann's notes. But I would have thought it had more to do with the daily motion of the Moon. 15* is about her top speed isn't it? (The Moon only covers 14* 50' 36'' of longitude at her maximum daily motion in February, but she belts along a good 15* 10 at her fastest in March.) And so to my mind whoever discovered this 'Third Day' stuff just calculated the maximum daily motion of the Moon. Even dawdling along at 11* 48' 31'' (her slowest speed this month) she still hits that 30* spot in the next sign on the `third day after birth' although several hours later. > I am mightily confused about how to apply this technique.< I don't think there is anything too complicated about it. All we are doing is nudging the Moon 30 degrees along the Zodiac into the next sign and seeing what her condition and aspects are once there. Run off a chart for `now' (07:48 am GMT 17th February 2007 - this present moment in time here) and note that the waning combust Moon is at 23* Aquarius applying to the Sun at 28* Aquarius. Use this as an example chart. Then taking note that both Firmicus and Dorotheus tell us to observe where the Moon is on the 3rd day after birth, and noting also that Roman fashion means counting today Saturday the birthday as the `first day of birth' and the next day tomorrow Sunday as the second day of birth, note that Monday would be the 3rd day n'est ce pas? And so if we then cast a chart for 07:48am on Monday 19th February where do we find the Moon? You got it! 23* Pisces!! Exactly 30 degrees further forward in the Zodiac :0)) This is because the Moon travels anything from around 11 degrees to 15 degrees a day, and she is nipping along pretty smartish right now. If the Moon was slow, she would only be at about 15 degrees Pisces this time on Monday, but she would eventually arrive at 23* degrees Pisces during the course of the `third day after birth' when the child first took nourishment. Vettius Valens insists that we stick to this point exactly 30* ahead of the radical Moon , and I should imagine that it is because we must have the 3rd day Moon in the Zodiacal Sign following the one she was in at birth. (If the Moon was in an early degree, say 2* Aquarius, and slow in motion, then she would still be in Aquarius 48 hours later at around only 25* Aquarius, which would throw the whole technique skew-wiff). So we need to have the Moon

in the same degree as the birth Moon, but one Zodiacal sign ahead. I am as wise as you are as to how to interpret this chart. But Dorotheus tells us to look at her dispositors and the planets aspecting her and judge whether they are in a good condition or not. As you can see by our example chart, the birth Moon is combust on the 17th Feb and disposited by Saturn in detriment who opposes the Moon herself. Ugh :-( !! Whereas on the 3rd day the Moon is disposited by benevolent Jupiter strong in his own domicile, exalting the very highly dignified Venus who she will shortly conjoin, and she is also in the triplicity of Mars, and applying to sextile Mars in his exaltation no less!! A brilliant Moon to my mind and so much better than the `Birth Moon' wouldn't you think? So despite the difficulties of the natal chart, any child born at this moment in time would have a splendid `fortune' according to this technique. Or at least, that is a quick `off the cuff' way I would read this. Dorothy J. Kovach [email protected] I was wondering why this was myself. As I said before, I had not known about Vettius Valens and the 30 degrees of the Moon until you mentioned it, and calculated it wrong. I think the new way fits much better. I learned something, too. I did not consider that the first day is the day of birth, the second, etc. Just like we walk through charts. I was wondering, like the ASC is symbolic of the moment of Sunrise, might this 3rd day chart be symbolic of the first visibility of the Moon? "The strength of the Moon increases beginning from the night she becomes visible. And if she has conjoined the Sun in Aries, she will become visible in Taurus so the whole sign is her exaltation." Ibin Ezra (translated by Meira Epstein edited by Robert Hand Track, Project Hindsight)

Using Technique Dorothy I thought it would be intriguing to look at some verified charts to see if there is anything to it. Here is a person with a verified birth time where the baby was abandoned by both father and then later by his mother. Louis Armstrong's father, William abandoned the family when Louis was still an infant, and within a few years, his mother, Mayabelle also left Louis' and his younger sister, Beatrice's upbringing to the care of his grandmother, Josephine Armstrong. Lois Rodden gives: A Louis Armstrong – natal 04 Aug 1901 10.00 P.M. (6) 90.04 WEST 29.58 NORTH 18H 51M 46S Regiomontanus A Sunday night ASC 18 Aries Moon 13 Aries 25 minutes Moon is moving at 14 degrees and 10 minutes, per day. According to the PBS documentary, the moment that young Louis was born, a fight was raging outside his mothers home, and a man was stabbed to death. This moment is clearly marked by the hot Aries rising, the emotional Moon, also in the very hot, sign Aries, right on the ASC in partile opposition to her ruler of violence, Mars on the 7th!!! I love astrology!! :-)

Ah, but we were not interested in seeing that, but what we want to see whether this 30 degree, 3rd day thing reflects Louis Armstrong's upbringing. Dorotheus says, "If you wish to consider the parents of the native, look for his father from the Sun and the Lord of the Triplicity " Okay ,so we now move Louis Armstrong's natal chart, to make his natal Moon move forward some 30 degrees (to 13 Taurus 25) . Louis Armstrong - 3rd day chart (Moon 30 degrees from its natal position) 07 Aug 1901 12.53 A.M. (6) 90.04 WEST 29.58 NORTH 21H 53M 07S Regiomontanus ASC 13 Gemini 27 minutes Louis 'Satchmo' Armstrong's Sun is now at 14 Leo 03 Minutes, and placed in the 3rd house. Since Louis was born at night, Jupiter will be his triplicity ruler. Jupiter is in the sign of its fall, Capricorn, and is very close to the 8th house of death. Dorotheus: “because from these planets are known the lineage of his father and his livelihood (respectively) " DK: So we have the father's lineage, quite good, with the Sun in Leo but Dorotheus also said: Dorotheus:"If you find the lord of the triplicity whether benefic or malefic, in good place and the Sun also strong in its place, then this is an indicator of wealth and praise for his father.” DK -- Well, even though Satchmo's might have come from a respectable family (dignified Sun in Leo) The triplicity ruler, Jupiter is both horribly defected, being both fallen and so close to the 8th. He may have had great ancestors, but in the 8th, we see he may not have been much of a bread winner, or even dead. Dorotheus: If the Sun is in terms of the Benefics, then it is better, and it indicates with this that the native will inherit this from his father” DK -- Louis Armstrong's Sun is in the triplicity of Venus. But we must remember that Venus in Louis' chart is at 10 Virgo, so this is both a fallen and detrimented Venus, so this may not bring the father much, even though it is a benefic and in an angular chart. . Dorotheus: "If you find the Sun and the Lord of its triplicty in bad places, then this indicates that his father is not noble and poverty and necessity have overtaken him.” DK - Here we have the Sun in the cadent and troublesome 3rd house (a house of the accidental debilitation of the Sun according to the Hindus), and we have Jupiter in the 8th house, another malefic placement. So far, so good. So we have the father's lineage, quite good, with the Sun in Leo, but with Jupiter fallen and so close to the 8th, we see he might have had great ancestors, but he may be heavily in debt, or not be able to make much money, with this Jupiter. Dorotheus: "If with this the malefics aspect the Sun, you will find illness, purification in his father.

DK - We see on the third day that the Sun receives the partile sextile from Mars. This does not bode well for the Father. Dorotheus "...If you find the Sun, and the lord of its triplicity in a bad place, that of its dejection (fallen), in other than its sign, then it indicates death, in a terrible place for the father" DK -- And we see that the lord of the triplicity of the Sun is fallen, and we can expect that something dreadful has happened to the father. One way or the other, so far, I think this is working. Dorotheus: "If with this the malefics aspect it from quartile or opposition, or are with it, all the property of the father and his mother will be squandered." DK -- though not in quartile or opposition, the Lord of the triplicity, Jupiter is conjoined to Saturn in the 8th house... Even though Dorotheus does not mention this association, I do believe we can safely say that that this holds true for Louis Armstrong. To be continued.... sites consulted: http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/ArmstrongLouis.htm wikopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Armstrong Caroline Allen [email protected] Brilliant idea!!! Yes – but to tell the truth, I am not too sure I am `sold' on this 3rd day Moon chart to show the general fortune of the native! (see below) Dorothy >According to the PBS documentary, the moment that young Louis was born, a fight was raging outside his mothers home, and a man was stabbed to death. This moment is clearly marked by the hot Aries rising, the emotional Moon, also in the very hot, sign Aries, right on the ASC in partile opposition to her ruler of violence, Mars on the 7th!!! I love astrology!! :-)< Oh Blimey yes! And just to make matters worse Mars is in his detriment! :-( I also see that the antiscion of the Sun Lord 4 is on the radical SN – not very auspicious regarding the home-life and father's parental care n'est ce pas? :-( Dorothy - 3rd day chart - Louis 'Satchmo' Armstrong's Sun is now at 14 Leo 03 Minutes, and placed in the 3rd house. Since Louis was born at night, Jupiter will be his triplicity ruler. Jupiter is in the sign of its fall, Capricorn, and is very close to the 8th house of death. Big Snip> Thank you for a truly impressive demonstration of the Sun in the 3rd day Moon Chart Dorothy! Yes, thank you very much indeed! I have printed both charts out and have been following you avidly :0) If I could just add the 3rd day Moon is conjunct the SN in Satchmo's 3rd day chart separating from a trine to Saturn Lord 10 and applying by square to the Sun Lord 4. Wouldn't this too be seen as indicative of `loss' or `lack' surrounding the early home life? Firmicus Maternus is dreadfully pessimistic about this aspect and says in Liber Quartus: Ch. IX: 6: Enormous ill fortune and great catastrophes are indicated by the Moon moving away

from Saturn toward the Sun. The natives will be lunatics, madmen, epileptics, or suffer from dropsy or elephantiasis. These evils are persistent and continue to the last day of life." Ends Hmmmmmmmmm, I am not too sure about this! Dorotheus tells us that this 3rd Day Moon is supposed to evaluate the `general fortune, condition and livelihood' of the native by scrutinizing the planets that disposit the Moon and the planets that aspect her on the 3rd day. So where do we find Satchmo's brilliant career in this 3rd day chart? I'm blowed if I can see `Satchmo Superstar' here can you? Whereas at least in his natal chart he did have a very dignified Lord 10 on the MC. I must admit, I am not quite sold on this idea yet! But thank you for a superb example and delineation Dorothy!! Angie [email protected] Thank you for a truly impressive delineation of Satchmo's chart(s). Not to take anything away from this, I would like to clarify the 3rd day Moon as opposed to looking at the father from the Sun and it's Lord, as these are two separate things. My understanding of using the 3rd day Moon was purely using the natal chart and moving the Moon 30 degrees and seeing what aspects were shown with the Moon in this position. Using my own chart, the Moon is fairly harmless in the natal chart, but moving it along 30 degrees it then opposes both Mars and Saturn! To look at the Father from the Sun and it's Lord, my understanding is that this is considered from the natal chart, with the Moon in it's natal position. I can see nothing in Dorotheus saying about calculating a completely new chart for the 3rd day, only to 'move' the Moon 30 degs. However I may be wrong and have missed an important sentence in Dorotheus. As I said, I do not wish to take anything away from Dorothy's brilliant interpretation, but am only trying to clarify this for my own benefit. Dorothy J. Kovach [email protected] >To tell the truth, I am not too sure I am `sold' on this 3rd day Moon chart to show the general fortune of the native! < I do not know, either. That is why I decided to test it. However, I was only working to see if Satchmo was abandoned according to Dorotheus. I had not at all examined his livelihood. Also, we should try to understand the reasoning behind the words. Why would the Sun on the 3rd day be so important? I may be wrong, but I suspect that we are a lot more free than folks were back in the 3rd century A.D. In other words, if your dad was rich, you might inherit, have land live the good life. If dad didn't have money, and you didn't inherit, you and all your family could be sold into slavery and separated. The upbringing, was everything, because without it, you could not leave your class, as folks can in this day and age, but like I say, I don't know. I am just at the very beginning of testing it out. One chart does not make a study.

> Oh Blimey yes! And just to make matters worse Mars is in his detriment! :-( I also see that the antiscion of the Sun Lord 4 is on the radical SN – not very auspicious regarding the homelife and father's parental care n'est ce pas? :-(< I believe I have heard that it was a bordello, and that the fight was taking place downstairs. Another example, like Code 4's of two events perfectly described in the same chart. I remember Michael Lutin saying something to the effect of, " our natal chart is nothing more than transits our mother had. " > If I could just add the 3rd day Moon is conjunct the SN in Satchmo's 3rd day chart separating from a trine to Saturn Lord 10 and applying by square to the Sun Lord 4. Wouldn't this too be seen as indicative of `loss' or `lack' surrounding the early home life?< Agreed. Thank you so much for pointing this out!! Indeed it would. However, I only got as far as delineating Satchmo's father, via the Sun for his lineage and the Lord of the Sun's triplicity for his livelihood. I had not gotten to his mother, yet, which would be suggested by the Moon's condition, nor his own livelihood, so stay tuned. Ah yes, I see, the Moon going from Saturn (coldness) to being burned in the flames of the Sun, does not say much for Louis' mother's livelihood, nor his nurturing. >Dorotheus tells us that this 3rd Day Moon is supposed to evaluate the `general fortune, condition and livelihood' of the native by scrutinizing the planets that disposit the Moon and the planets that aspect her on the 3rd day. So where do we find Satchmo's brilliant career in this 3rd day chart?< Again, I was only concentrating on the 'upbringing of the native, with regards to the father' as shown by the Sun for lineage, and the lord of the Sun's triplicity for livelihood. as per, Dorotheus suggestion. I did not yet get to either the condition of his mother, nor his own livelihood yet. > I'm blowed if I can see `Satchmo Superstar' here can you? Whereas at least in his natal chart he did have a very dignified Lord 10 on the MC. I must admit, I am not quite sold on this idea yet!I bought some special turpentine to remove the tar. . . removing the feathers was easy after I untied the bag from the inside while under the water.< Waaaah poor Arthyr! I am sorry I was so beastly to you, but in the Pingree translation at least, Valens says BK 8, Chapter II "The general fortune of the native is evaluated by considering the planets aspecting the points (3rd,7th,11th, 40th day Moon and squares to it) or having rulership there." As does Dorotheus, who not only includes the dispositor, but also wants to rope in the exaltation ruler as well! > Okay, let's not do charts about the 3rd, 7th and 11th, and 40th day.< No, let's do them. But let's use the dispositors :0) [email protected] [email protected] >but in the Pingree translation at least, Valens says BK 8, Chapter II "The general fortune of the native is evaluated by considering the planets aspecting the points (3rd,7th,11th, 40th day Moon and squares to it) or having rulership there." As does Dorotheus, who not only includes the dispositor, but also wants to rope in the exaltation ruler as well!< Well, I was reading Valens and didn't see either Pingree or Dorotheus in his book. . . but that's water under the tunnel unless somebody turns on the lights and looks for some flotsam to point at :-)

I'm wondering when Dorotheus wrote any additional information if he needed a stick to his head? Or was he simply accepted as one of the village's missing children. Apparently NO one went beyond the earlier writings or dared to mention something any differently that a Babylonian or Egyptian wrote. As a Mattaho'fak, I found a translation on some cuneiform tablet many years ago that the scribe answered a king's request to explain himself. . . his reply? "But sire, we've always done it that way." Caroline Allen [email protected] > Well, I was reading Valens and didn't see either Pingree or Dorotheus in his book. . . but that's water under the tunnel unless somebody turns on the lights and looks for some flotsam to point at :I'm wondering when Dorotheus wrote any additional information if he needed a stick to his head? Or was he simply accepted as one of the village's missing children< I don't understand what you mean. Dorotheus was writing around 45- 65 AD, a century before Valens who wasn't born until 120 AD. But both of them based their astrology on that of Critodemus, Nechepso and Petosiris. And I know that you have copies of Nechepso and Petosiris' work, so are you saying that Dorotheus and Firmicus and Valens stuck in an extra bit about the dispositors? (`Erm, maybe they were those `free thinkers' you were referring to LOL :0))) hee hee! > Apparently NO one went beyond the earlier writings or dared to mention something any differently that a Babylonian or Egyptian wrote. As a Mattaho'fak, I found a translation on some cuneiform tablet many years ago that the scribe answered a king's request to explain himself. . . his reply? "But sire, we've always done it that way."< Point taken :0) Not well, but taken nevertheless >~~ CarO ~~ No, let's do them. But let's use the dispositors :0) > Nope (eyes upward, pursed lips)< I disagree. All we would be doing is looking to the new place of the Moon, discover her dispositor, and see what aspects she makes!! What is `too much" about that?